DAOC: Ingredients for realm pride
Posted by: Snafzg
On: Dec 21, 2009 at 02:40pm
Keen has a cool post up describing his fond memories of Dark Age of Camelot. I have great memories of DAOC as it was my first true foray into the genre and also my first love/hate experience. I was too busy MUDDING to even consider Ultima Online when it came out and Everquest didn't have enough of a PvP focus to keep my attention for long. DAOC hit me at the right time; just as I was getting a bit fed up with my MUD and had upgraded my computer to a 64MB Voodoo card. Oh, the power of that bad boy...
But this post isn't about dissecting my DAOC experience. I want to hit on something else. I want to discuss a point that Keen brought up anecdotally in detail. He says he can't pinpoint exactly what brought the element of "Realm Pride" to DAOC. I think I can.
Timing
DAOC released when MMOs were still young and really marketed itself as a "Realm vs. Realm" game instead of a "Player vs. Player" game. Mythic set themselves up with a broader PvP system from the outset. It wasn't one on one or guild vs. guild. It was your homeland vs. your enemies' homelands. People hadn't seem this kind of system before 2001 and it was regarded as a more meaningful PvP system because the entire game was built around it.
Three Realms
Midgard; harsh, frozen north and based on Norse mythology. Albion; rugged but varied terrain and based on Arthurian legend. Hibernia; lush, magical greenery and based on Celtic folklore. Each realm was made up of distinct races, classes (loose class mirrors), strengths, and weaknesses. Each realm attracted a certain kind of player. A player that would become attached to his history and lifestyle. A player that would fight to protect their morales and values as they conflicted with the opposing realms'. Inter-realm alliances could form out of necessity and end in backstabbing deceit. The only ones you could really trust were your realmmates.
Realm rewards vs. Individual rewards (RvR)
The big picture rewards in DAOC came in the form of realm rewards. Keeps weren't taken for gold loot bags; they were taken to unlock Darkness Falls and weaken the enemy's relic defenses. Renown ranks granted special abilities that would aid in team-based RvR rather than individual stat buffs to boost your individual effectiveness. Relics gave realm-wide effectiveness buffs.
Group incentives
There were strong incentives to group in DAOC's PvE and RvR games. In terms of PvE, there were group XP bonuses. Due to timing, the WoW model of quest-to-level wasn't fully developed in DAOC so many players were forced to group to efficiently progress their characters (until buffbots came around). There were plenty of mob spawn camps and dungeons that would always reward the group vs. the individual. The brotherhood and sisterhood formed in PvE carried over into RvR.
In terms of RvR, a solo player really couldn't accomplish much unless they were a stealther or speed class or luckily stumbled across other solo players. This happened but not often. Whether you were in a zerg, battlegroup, or 8-man guild/gank squad, it was always beneficial to have smart and sophisticated realmmates by your side. Battles would be won against your hated enemies and it filled you with pride. Death on the battlefield strenghtened your resolve for revenge.
Siege complexity
Keep siege was complex in DAOC. There were milegates, bridges, bridge towers, moats, keep towers, destructible keep walls, ladders for stealthers, main doors to batter down, side doors to guard, and a variety of weapony including catapults, rams, and ballistae. To successfully take or defend a keep meant you were using either superior numbers or better tactics. Communication and coordination were key and a realm employing both of these things ran like a well-oiled machine. Such efforts really filled you with a sense of realm or at least guild pride.
No scenarios at end game
Endgame RvR was persistent in DAOC and there were no distractions in the form of scenarios or battlegrounds. If you were 50 and wanted to RvR, you needed to do it in the frontier or Darkness Falls. This made RvR real and semi-permanent instead of gamey and ultra-temporary. It fostered realm pride because action or inaction led to wins and losses that were felt by your entire realm.
Scenarios, or as they called them, battlegrounds were present throughout the <50 game in DAOC and they were a training ground for what was to come at the end game as much as they were about quick injections of fun and adrenaline. The same communication, collaboration, and coordination was necessary to take the center keep and push the enemy back to its portal keep. These BGs didn't offer much diversity in terms of gameplay experience, but their repetitive nature helped form RvRers of the future.
-----------------
Dark Age of Camelot was far from a perfect MMO but it did get one element right that seems absent in modern MMOs: realm pride. And while realm pride wasn't the be-all-end-all of the game, it sure led to a sense of meaning and purpose when you logged in for one hour or six. It's unfortunate that Warhammer Online failed to capture realm pride on the scale that was found in DAOC but looking at the above list of ingredients, it seems pretty obvious why that was the case.
Can you point to many of those afforementioned ingredients in WAR? I can't.
But this post isn't about dissecting my DAOC experience. I want to hit on something else. I want to discuss a point that Keen brought up anecdotally in detail. He says he can't pinpoint exactly what brought the element of "Realm Pride" to DAOC. I think I can.
Timing
DAOC released when MMOs were still young and really marketed itself as a "Realm vs. Realm" game instead of a "Player vs. Player" game. Mythic set themselves up with a broader PvP system from the outset. It wasn't one on one or guild vs. guild. It was your homeland vs. your enemies' homelands. People hadn't seem this kind of system before 2001 and it was regarded as a more meaningful PvP system because the entire game was built around it.
Three Realms
Midgard; harsh, frozen north and based on Norse mythology. Albion; rugged but varied terrain and based on Arthurian legend. Hibernia; lush, magical greenery and based on Celtic folklore. Each realm was made up of distinct races, classes (loose class mirrors), strengths, and weaknesses. Each realm attracted a certain kind of player. A player that would become attached to his history and lifestyle. A player that would fight to protect their morales and values as they conflicted with the opposing realms'. Inter-realm alliances could form out of necessity and end in backstabbing deceit. The only ones you could really trust were your realmmates.
Realm rewards vs. Individual rewards (RvR)
The big picture rewards in DAOC came in the form of realm rewards. Keeps weren't taken for gold loot bags; they were taken to unlock Darkness Falls and weaken the enemy's relic defenses. Renown ranks granted special abilities that would aid in team-based RvR rather than individual stat buffs to boost your individual effectiveness. Relics gave realm-wide effectiveness buffs.
Group incentives
There were strong incentives to group in DAOC's PvE and RvR games. In terms of PvE, there were group XP bonuses. Due to timing, the WoW model of quest-to-level wasn't fully developed in DAOC so many players were forced to group to efficiently progress their characters (until buffbots came around). There were plenty of mob spawn camps and dungeons that would always reward the group vs. the individual. The brotherhood and sisterhood formed in PvE carried over into RvR.
In terms of RvR, a solo player really couldn't accomplish much unless they were a stealther or speed class or luckily stumbled across other solo players. This happened but not often. Whether you were in a zerg, battlegroup, or 8-man guild/gank squad, it was always beneficial to have smart and sophisticated realmmates by your side. Battles would be won against your hated enemies and it filled you with pride. Death on the battlefield strenghtened your resolve for revenge.
Siege complexity
Keep siege was complex in DAOC. There were milegates, bridges, bridge towers, moats, keep towers, destructible keep walls, ladders for stealthers, main doors to batter down, side doors to guard, and a variety of weapony including catapults, rams, and ballistae. To successfully take or defend a keep meant you were using either superior numbers or better tactics. Communication and coordination were key and a realm employing both of these things ran like a well-oiled machine. Such efforts really filled you with a sense of realm or at least guild pride.
No scenarios at end game
Endgame RvR was persistent in DAOC and there were no distractions in the form of scenarios or battlegrounds. If you were 50 and wanted to RvR, you needed to do it in the frontier or Darkness Falls. This made RvR real and semi-permanent instead of gamey and ultra-temporary. It fostered realm pride because action or inaction led to wins and losses that were felt by your entire realm.
Scenarios, or as they called them, battlegrounds were present throughout the <50 game in DAOC and they were a training ground for what was to come at the end game as much as they were about quick injections of fun and adrenaline. The same communication, collaboration, and coordination was necessary to take the center keep and push the enemy back to its portal keep. These BGs didn't offer much diversity in terms of gameplay experience, but their repetitive nature helped form RvRers of the future.
-----------------
Dark Age of Camelot was far from a perfect MMO but it did get one element right that seems absent in modern MMOs: realm pride. And while realm pride wasn't the be-all-end-all of the game, it sure led to a sense of meaning and purpose when you logged in for one hour or six. It's unfortunate that Warhammer Online failed to capture realm pride on the scale that was found in DAOC but looking at the above list of ingredients, it seems pretty obvious why that was the case.
Can you point to many of those afforementioned ingredients in WAR? I can't.
For me this was a huge plus compared to Scenarios.
Scenarios or any kind of short burst instanced PvP is meaningless.
Id rather spend a whole evening battling over a central keep at lev 24 than grind the same scenario over and over just to accumulate some points.
What did they say, WAR is everywhere?
nah. War was in Daoc.
I could spend hours on things I think that game did right compared to the massive fail of WAR.
The Situation / the Players have changed. Once agother was great demand for DAOC / RvR
and today?
the "Alte Garde" from DAOC have families and no more time for that 24hr RvR Business.
look at DAOC today... <2000 players
and WAR is suffering
To me, DAOC represents something that we'll never see again. A wierd mix of 'realm pride' and newness to MMO's that captivated peoples imaginations. For many DAOC was their first MMO, mine included. And sudden a sense of companionship came into place for many. I think all that was just sort of luck that the developers hit on with a healthy dose of timing.
WoW has changed all this. We don't have many new MMO players anymore, and the gaming world has changed drastically.
That being said, it's not like what DAOC did well can't be made into a great MMO. Warhammer tried an 'aspect' of it. But it was plagued by late game changes and still some bad balancing problems that DAOC resolved a couple years ago. (i.e. Make 99% absolutely the same and only 1% sort of different)
Over all, I wish the best for Warhammer and I still intend on playing it. But it doesn't change the fact that there can be a better game.
Three realms: whatever the benefits in terms of balancing, I don't think having two realms in WAR affected the community, especially since there were 3 races on each side for people to identify with. I think what did hurt in WAR was cutting the other 4 capitol cities, and not having things like career specific quests tied to locations there (e.g. the Bright Wizard college in Altdorf). But there's nothing in your point there really specific to 3 realms, as opposed to 2, or 4 or 6, or however many.
Rewards: WAR could be better (particularly relative to the PvE rewards), but you say "Keeps weren't taken for gold bags, they were for DF or to weaken relics." But why did you want to go to DF- for the end-game loot equivalent to the WAR gold bags? Not knowing much about relics, can't say too much, but you do you get really significant renown and XP points, as well as some buffs when you capture a WAR zone, and the best way to do that is to take the keeps and BOs. Hopefully they'll get somehting like relics into the forts if they were that great.
Group incentives: I think the more casual nature of the PvE (easy mobs, red quest circles on maps) and open grouping as well as things like the WarDB site quite possibly impede the growth of the community and formation of realm pride. But these are also great for casual players like me who don't always have significant time to play.
Keep sieges: i'm all for more complex ones in WAR. But I've watched some youtube videos of the "epic" keep sieges, and it didn't seem that different than the much-maligned RvDoor of WAR. Keen's description of the epic siege is currently refereed to as "Here comes the Order/Destro zerg." Adding in a third realm would just be a third zerg here.
Scenarios: this is the big difference. As a casual player, I love scenarios. It gives me and my guild a chance to put a group together and have a decent shot at getting a relatively balanced fight. And I think running a couple scenarios against the other sides is a great way to build up rivalries and team spirit, and just as meaningful than fighting that same group in the open.
Anyway, sorry for the wall of text- just had a bunch of these points bubbling in my head for the last few weeks or so. There's plenty WAR could do better, but what I think gets lost is that a lot of the design decisions they made were to bring in a lot of people who didn't have the time and/or inclination to dedicate to pure, open-field PvP (I think it's interesting that in all the pre-release hype, the WAR devs clearly defined RvR to include PvE content, but the community does not). And from everything I've read about DAoC, they've made a game in WAR that I as a casual player am much more interested in playing.
I mean after you picked your server and sitting on that first screen listing Albion, Hibernia, or Midgard for the rest of your server life. I sat there 20 minutes waving my mouse back and forth. I understood That there was an implied contract that I was married to these people for better or worse.
I eventually divorced myself from Alb and found my one true love Midgard.
I have played other MMO's but none make you do sign that contract. It's like living on the border of two nations and having citizenship in both. When they go to war where are your loyalties? Can I really depend on my realm mates?
BTW there are F2P private classic servers out there if your feeling like dealing with a few bugs for that nostalgic feeling.