Warhammer Online's greatest design flaw...

Many people have been saying it since launch, but I must reiterate it because Keen brought something to light I meant to post about the other day after a telephone call with a friend: WAR will always suffer without a third realm.

We were chatting about The Land of the Dead and really couldn't come up with too many positives about it. The videos look pretty and the developer commentary sounds spectacular (when doesn't it, right?) but I've seen too many great Mythic ideas nosedive to take either of these at face value. Aside from the potential for bugged encounters and horrible performance, The Land of the Dead will likely cause major RvR problems due to the lack of a third realm.

Let's break it down. What happens when a city is being sieged? All the RvR lakes freeze for 2 hours and RvR outside the city becomes non-existent. What happens with a city is taken? The same thing, except there's no RvR for 16 (?) hours.

What will happen when LotD comes out? Since it's so new and fresh, almost everyone from the winning side will enter it. This may die down after a few months, but given everything Mythic has put into this, LotD will draw in almost everyone who meets the rank requirement. That wouldn't be so bad except that the losing side won't have anyone to fight. What will they be left with? RvE. Yaaaay, back to RvE again. You're basically left with the same situation as a city RvR lockout.

Keen worries that that losing side might never be able to gain enough resources to get back in, but let's be slightly more optimistic and pretend for the sake of argument that they can. What's that mean? It means the only real RvR that will take place will be every 30-??? minutes when the other side sweeps in. Keen is totally correct in pointing out that this wasn't so bad in DAOC because there was at least a third realm (aka second losing realm) for you to fight when the other side controlled Darkness Falls. This won't be an option in WAR.

I have little doubt the RvR battles inside LotD will be great and fun (barring performance issues), but it shouldn't be the only exciting and meaningful RvR in the game.

I know this might sound hypocritical because I and many others have been begging for a DF equivalent in WAR since launch but I honestly hadn't considered how bad it could be without a third realm to keep on fighting outside the dungeon until Friday night's phone call. I also realize that there is little to no chance of Mythic adding a third realm to WAR given all the current zone layouts, class balance issues, and amount of work it would take to overhaul the game, but I'm still baffled as to why they didn't realize a 3-way system is much better than a 2-way system from the get-go.

Here's a tip for anyone trying to make a meaningful RvR/PvP MMO in the near future: Good things come in threes. Three stooges. Three Muskateers. Three Amigos. Ole!

Werit

May 19, 2009

at 11:37am

This is a tough one. I too am pretty concerned about the lack of enemies to kill while others are in the LotD. Without players to kill, it will likely take an hour or 2 to get some zone locks, which also contribute resources, all of which is RvE.

I guess their hope is players will stay behind to defend in order to keep access for their realm. Not a very realistic expectation of the players.

Tipa

May 19, 2009

at 11:56am

As recent articles about WoW, PotBS, CoH and many others show, the players just refuse to play the games the way they are SUPPOSED to. Each company has tried very hard to make players do things the way they should do things, and then keep adding more stuff when players keep doing it wrong. At least LoD can be seen as more a reward for good behavior than a punishment for bad.

Ryver

May 19, 2009

at 02:43pm

I see a second realm as highly unlikely for another 1-2 years. As pointed out, there are too many issues and it takes time to create that much new content plus work it into the current pairing system.

Considering that I don't remember hearing anything recently about the crafting skills that are still missing or the city revamps for the lost cities, I highly doubt we'll see a new realm added.

I'm going to come back for at least 1.5 months and see how this starts to play out. Still debating between playing my 37/38 RP or some lower level alt though.

Rivs

May 20, 2009

at 12:20pm

I wish they had a third faction...alas they don't. Though I might reup for a bit to check things out.

Tenjin

May 21, 2009

at 12:58am

A guildmate and I have been talking about the viability of Warhammer lately. I've been trying to replace my Zealot main with a more palatable class, but cannot find any action. Scenarios barely pop anymore. My guildmate's had a similar experience trying to replace his Witch Elf. We share the hunch that people remain in Warhammer, waiting for a better non-hardcore PvP MMO to emerge. The best near-to-mid-future candidates are Jumpgate Evolution and Aion. But with JGE being put off until September, we're probably stuck in Warhammer all summer. We've even discussed putting the MMO genre behind us for a while. I bought my first Action/Shooter last night.

Yeebo

May 21, 2009

at 06:39pm

It does boggle me that Mythic thought two realms would work out OK. They did design DAoC, and surely someone there spent tome time playing the atrocious PvP in WoW. Really seems like they had more than enough to go on . . .

I also wonder if the game would be working out better if they had stuck to their original plan of six capital cities. I can see where things might have worked better of the game was divided up into three semi-independent campaigns. As it stands, I think the issue of realm balance is going to be pretty hopeless until Mythic bucks up and makes some major structural changes to the game.

I also find it more than a little puzzling that they aren't using "realm bonuses" for underdog realms like they do in DAoC.

Cogworks

May 25, 2009

at 07:56pm

The thing is that the losing side DOES have an advantage when it time to go for the win again and gain access. Whatever resources you had when you lost...you start the next round with and the winning side starts at zero.

I see this as a good thing.

Kind of hard to be pessimistic about something that isn't implemented yet...

Snafzg

May 26, 2009

at 08:24am

I think the other side will always eventually get in. It's the boredom they'll have to suffer through in the meantime because almost everyone of the opposing realm will be in LotD instead of out in the RvR lakes or cities. The main thing to do will be RvE, which isn't a good solution imho.

coppertoppe

Jun 22, 2009

at 05:53pm

I feel like everyone is taking crazy pills when they talk about how much a 3rd realm would improve the game. It never made a difference in DAOC since the 3rd realm was always the complete underdog. At most they could field 1 or 2 roaming groups for the bigger realms to slaughter.

Stop promoting this stupid idea.

Saylah

Jun 23, 2009

at 08:21am

@Cooper - I think you're missing their point. A 3rd realm leaves two factions out in the game for RVR and Scenarios while the winning faction is in LOTD. With only two, the losing side is ass-out with not much to do in terms of PVP/RVR until the recapturing cycle for LOTD begins again.

Snafzg

Jun 23, 2009

at 08:28am

@Saylah - Precisely. I guess we'll find out this week.

coppertoppe

Jun 23, 2009

at 09:02am

LOTD is just a PVE area, just like Darkness falls was in DAOC. ORvR wont end when it flips, just like LV runs don't empty out RvR currently. There will be about an hr of frantic RvR in LOTD to push out the enemy. And if someone starts attacking keeps, watch how fast the 40's will /guild scroll back to RvR action.

Snafgz didnt you play DAOC? I hate to sound all "back in my day" but this is not a new concept - its how it worked for the 3yrs I played DAOC.

Snafzg

Jun 23, 2009

at 09:38am

In the long run you are probably right, but in the short term everyone and their momma is going to want to pillage LotD for everything it's worth. Once everyone has had their fill, I'd wager 20% of the winning side will be in LotD but for the first couple months, I wouldn't be shocked to see over 50%+ of people in LotD.

I don't think the LV runs empty out RvR right now due to the 5 day lockout timer. Even the city dungeons have a 3 day lockout timer. Interestingly, any time I tried to form a group for either of these dungeons, I could barely make up a group of folks who weren't locked out. Take away those lockout timers and I bet they would be a bigger drain on RvR than you'd think... which is unfortunate.

I'm also curious if there might be a bit more incentive to raid LotD as a rank 40 than there was as a rank 50 in DAOC. The Invader gear is supposedly on par with Warlord gear and since very few are actually interested in raiding cities, I think LotD might have a pretty big draw. Legion gear was desirable in DAOC until ToA came out... Actually, I think the raid gear from SI was even better.

coppertoppe

Jun 23, 2009

at 09:58am

Yeah the new hotness will definately have the draw for awhile. Thats a good point about the gear grind shifting maybe towards LOTD, or at least spreading out. No lockout on that dungeon i hope.

Well like you said, I guess well see shortly. Order won ownership on my server.

May 20, 2009: What I’m thinking. « Archmagery

May 20, 2009: West Karana » Daily Blogroll 5/20 — Hump Day edition!