If I were Mark Jacobs: Gear grinding
Posted by: Snafzg
On: Apr 30, 2009 at 09:10pm
Welcome to a new semi-quasi-sorta-regular series called If I were Mark Jacobs.
Someone told me to use my blog to suggest changes I'd make to WAR rather than keep on saying that I'm on my way out of the game. Sure, let's give it a try. Each part in this series will take an aspect of WAR that basically pisses me off and then suggest an alternative solution.
I hate gear grinds in any MMO, not just in WAR. Gear is a tool that should give you an advantage in battle but I don't believe your entire progression and incentive structure should revolve around it. Unfortunately, WAR in its current state is all about the gear, wards, and sets.
This post isn't about the gear itself (I'll save that for another day), but the grind Mythic forces us to go through to get it. To save some space in this post, please read Nazgum's latest entry. I agree with him completely that gear is simply too difficult to get right now.
Why is it so hard to obtain? The answer is obvious. Gear is the carrot on the stick. Gear is the only real motivator Mythic thinks will keep you logging back in. Gear is a key, not really any different than a faction grind, that unlocks more difficult and interesting content.
I don't agree with this at all and I think it is a ridiculously stupid motivator for an RvR game that is supposed to be about teamwork, realm pride (whatever that is these days), and fighting other players. The only real difference between the gear system in WAR and the gear system introduced DAOC with TOA is that you were forced into PvE to get the gear in DAOC. You're only half-forced in WAR... but that doesn't mean it's any less grindy. Since launch people have found it a more efficient use of time to gain gear from PvE than RvR. That's just freakin' wrong.
Have a little confidence in the game you built and put a little trust in your players that they will make alts. And of course, cut the grind by at least 50%!
Warhammer is theoretically an alting paradise. There are 12 careers in each realm and they all play very differently. The tier-based system and scenario variety that Warhammer is based upon lends itself to alting as well. Back when WAR first released, previous zone control meant a lot more than it does today. Why did it change? No-one was really alting. Why? The grind! Not just a gear grind of course, but a gear + renown + influence + XP grind. Yay, ideas for future posts in this series...
Why the heck would I want to make a new character when the one I've been playing for the past 7-months isn't even remotely close to the end of his gear grind? Gear isn't as important as it is in other MMOs, but a rank 40 in PQ-gear doesn't stand much of a chance vs. one in Conqueror gear and that's only two levels of quality up. Also, as Nazgum says, the chances of you getting into even Annihilator gear are much lower today than they were back when WAR first launched. Back then, there weren't 2-3 warbands taking each keep.
And let's not pretend the new token system is the savior here. It's just another grind and Mythic even admits that it is only supposed to supplement your gear grind. The prices are waaaay out of whack.
WAR is supposed to be game of perpetual war. Rather than focusing on a vertical progression model, focus more on the horizontal. People will still play their fully maxed characters because they will still have an edge. People still play FPS games and their characters don't progress at all! We will be more willing to roll a new character and experience your game from another perspective. Think for a moment about Team Fortress 2. Once you've mastered the Tank you start playing a Spy.
Options = fun. Locking someone into one role because it isn't an efficient use of their time to play anything else is not.
Think about it, Mark.
Someone told me to use my blog to suggest changes I'd make to WAR rather than keep on saying that I'm on my way out of the game. Sure, let's give it a try. Each part in this series will take an aspect of WAR that basically pisses me off and then suggest an alternative solution.
Gear grinding
I hate gear grinds in any MMO, not just in WAR. Gear is a tool that should give you an advantage in battle but I don't believe your entire progression and incentive structure should revolve around it. Unfortunately, WAR in its current state is all about the gear, wards, and sets.
This post isn't about the gear itself (I'll save that for another day), but the grind Mythic forces us to go through to get it. To save some space in this post, please read Nazgum's latest entry. I agree with him completely that gear is simply too difficult to get right now.
Why is it so hard to obtain? The answer is obvious. Gear is the carrot on the stick. Gear is the only real motivator Mythic thinks will keep you logging back in. Gear is a key, not really any different than a faction grind, that unlocks more difficult and interesting content.
I don't agree with this at all and I think it is a ridiculously stupid motivator for an RvR game that is supposed to be about teamwork, realm pride (whatever that is these days), and fighting other players. The only real difference between the gear system in WAR and the gear system introduced DAOC with TOA is that you were forced into PvE to get the gear in DAOC. You're only half-forced in WAR... but that doesn't mean it's any less grindy. Since launch people have found it a more efficient use of time to gain gear from PvE than RvR. That's just freakin' wrong.
The solution
Have a little confidence in the game you built and put a little trust in your players that they will make alts. And of course, cut the grind by at least 50%!
Warhammer is theoretically an alting paradise. There are 12 careers in each realm and they all play very differently. The tier-based system and scenario variety that Warhammer is based upon lends itself to alting as well. Back when WAR first released, previous zone control meant a lot more than it does today. Why did it change? No-one was really alting. Why? The grind! Not just a gear grind of course, but a gear + renown + influence + XP grind. Yay, ideas for future posts in this series...
Why the heck would I want to make a new character when the one I've been playing for the past 7-months isn't even remotely close to the end of his gear grind? Gear isn't as important as it is in other MMOs, but a rank 40 in PQ-gear doesn't stand much of a chance vs. one in Conqueror gear and that's only two levels of quality up. Also, as Nazgum says, the chances of you getting into even Annihilator gear are much lower today than they were back when WAR first launched. Back then, there weren't 2-3 warbands taking each keep.
And let's not pretend the new token system is the savior here. It's just another grind and Mythic even admits that it is only supposed to supplement your gear grind. The prices are waaaay out of whack.
WAR is supposed to be game of perpetual war. Rather than focusing on a vertical progression model, focus more on the horizontal. People will still play their fully maxed characters because they will still have an edge. People still play FPS games and their characters don't progress at all! We will be more willing to roll a new character and experience your game from another perspective. Think for a moment about Team Fortress 2. Once you've mastered the Tank you start playing a Spy.
Options = fun. Locking someone into one role because it isn't an efficient use of their time to play anything else is not.
Think about it, Mark.
Seriously, how hard would it be to reimburse this guy? They have a POLICY AGAINST REIMBURSEMENT OF GEAR for God's sake. That's just brutal.
Get over your obsession, Mythic/GOA. Seriously, it's unhealthy for your game.
Customer Service should be the lynch pin that holds a game like this together. Instead, its a useless system. You're welcome to put in a CSR, but please remember you'll have to wait the requisite 6 weeks before anyone tries to contact you.
I think this subject needs to be beaten up as often as we can untill they (Mythic) take's notice, and fixes it.
With the prices as they are, why would anyone actaully buy any annihilator gear with there medallions? Seriously everyone i know and play with is just saving up for Conq...
*Also my T3 toon just leveled out of T3. I have leveled him entirely with RvR and Sc's...guess what? only 61 medallions /epic fail
It's easy to bash Mythic but they have been trying -- and have put things in the game from player feedback. Of late I read they intend to tweek the token system after they've gathered some data. Hopefully they have enough and will make them easier to come by or items will get cheaper.
I have zero confidence that my main will complete his Conquerer set -- and I do a lot of RvR. The only pieces I have are the boots (bought at AH) and the gloves (bought at the vendor before tokens). Haven't bought a belt (but will look). Getting the rest of it seems like a pipe dream with the sheer number of people at a fortress take. My luck sucks on keep takes let alone at a fortress. It's a shame we have to rely on luck. So I've been focusing on Sentinel gear. The good thing is I'm not as wrapped up in completing sets but am focused on getting wards.
So between my Conquerer and Sentinel pieces I have 4/5 greater wards. I can at least go to Lost Vale where I will focus on Darkpromise over Invader.
I love this game and really enjoy playing it. But this feeling of no chance to get your gear even if you play forever stinks. I run many ALTs (too many) and have zero expectation of them getting any of this warded gear from RvR. So it's Bastion, Crypts, and Tunnels for me! Where you still aren't guaranteed completing your gear. LOL (laughing on the outside ... crying on the inside)
I don't feel gear should be easily obtained but the current model makes it near impossible. So when I see someone in complete/near complete Conquerer or Invader ... I wonder how the hell they did it? Are they the luckiest person ever or do they play considerably more than I do.
I think at the moment, we have to few options to gain, what is effectively the same armour, with very little mixing and matching going on.
Hopefully LotD will widen the armour/weapons choice.
In fact, this is what keeps me excited about the Land of the Dead, as it has been confirmed that the items there are equivalent to, NOT necessarily better than, currently available items, up to Lost Vale quality.
Hopefully, being that LotD is open to a much wider range of levels and players, we will start seeing the first real steps towards getting more viable ways to earn the gear that we need.
More like EVE less like WoW.
Ugh, I liked! So clear and positively.
Have a nice day
I strongly believe the system should stay the way it is and to keep the number of "dominate players" at a minimum... if not you might as well start the game at level 40 with rr 80 and in full warlord gear and a bag full of gold. while they are at it they should pay off my truck payment. Think about it and understand that not everyone can be the one dominate player and there always needs to be one.
I'm at the end of T3, level 31 and about to hit 32. I only level through rvr, and an occasional scenario. I don't do quests except for the ones that earn you tokens. Throughout T3 I have earned 68 soldier's tokens. It takes 165 for the Devastator Chest. I've not come in over 5th place in a keep take and i've come in first in participation or w/e quite often. I will never see my devastator chest.
I can only imagine the impossible wall that Destruction on my server hit when they get to 40. It doesn't matter if you're good or bad when the chips are stacked against you.
It's been what? Three weeks or so? I have 26 officer medallions and 2 invader crests. They might as well have never put this system into the game. It's just pissing off the players they have left.
Change is necessary. This is why i'm not still playing Pong.
So what the hell happened to Mythic? Apparently merging with EA completely lobotomized the lessons previously learned about grinding and forcing a grind on a RvR/PvP focused population to re-enter into a horrific PvE grind just to remain competitive in PvP again.
It pissed people off back then by the thousands! Here we are years later, with a spruced up graphic engine, and the same mistakes?! Of all the developers come and gone, Mark Jacobs should know better.
Tone down the grind Mark! Give us some credit and allow us to enjoy a game without radically changing the mechanics every time you patch the server.
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